Posted by voyager on Mon, Feb 20, 2012, at 2:00 PM:
Rapture or rupture?
Replies (37)
I've read 3 books written by Erich von Daniken on the subject. Chariots of the Gods, History is Wrong and Twilight of the Gods. Very fascinating
-- Posted by exmissourian on Mon, Feb 20, 2012, at 7:19 PM
I've heard the theory that the aliens are our own yet to be born decendents having fun with time travel.
-- Posted by Old John on Mon, Feb 20, 2012, at 11:38 PM
Rick, The next time Hal-Bab comet comes through those folks that got on will get off and explain it all. ;)
I alway wondered if the people that rose to such feats in ancient times may have been inflicted with a slightly more complex version or result of a Tower of Babble adjustment.
-- Posted by Old John on Tue, Feb 21, 2012, at 11:17 PM
Certainly the ancients knew more than we give them credit for. Just look at the Mayans who created a calendar that accurately predicted the release date of the new Hobbit movie over 2000 years ago and has been counting down to it ever since.
Apparently, they were fans of Middle-Earth.
-- Posted by DADES on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 7:57 AM
"1. Without more advanced tools and technology..."
Answer -- The inclined plane, levers, pullys, slaves (lots) and time (also lots.)
Can you imagine a pyramid contractor working in the states today being approached by an prospective pyramid buyer. They agree to the size, shape, and price and the builders says, "Fine, it will be completed in 75 years."
Immediately, the buyer responds, "No, you don't understand, I want it done this year!!"
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 8:51 AM
We Americans tend to share the Eurocentric veiw of technology that we inherited from our forebears. It continues in the teachings of our schools, where 'Western Civiliazation' is the focus, and other histories get scant mention. The view we hold stems from the idea that civilization, born in the Mesopotamian region, spread primarily northward and westward, through Greece and Rome to create the civilized world, while the rest of the World remained populated with naked savages awaiting our arrival.
We find it difficult to believe that cultures could rise to significance, and fall into disrepair, without the influence of Mediterranean-based culture.
The old adage that 'Rome wasn't build in a day' applies elsewhere, too. As Commonsensematters wrote, there is no reason that a people, unencumbered by war, could not direct their resources to the building of massive temple and cultural complexes. In fact, such endeavors may well have been seen as necessary to prevent war.
Such cultures, when finally 'found' by outside influences, could quickly succumb to war, famine, or disease, entirely unbeknownst to western civilization.
L. Sprague DeCamp has written books on such places. He visited many of them, studied their history - such as it could be discerned - and dedicated considerable effort to debunking the 'ancient alien' ideas.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 9:56 AM
Regarding the time issue, however, it is not necessarily true that it always takes so long as presumed.
I recall the following conversation I read in a book, long ago:
"Are you saying you can build a wall 100 miles long in one year?"
"Yes, it can be done."
"You are insane, that would be impossible."
"Would you agree that it would be possible to build a wall one mile long in a year?"
"Yes, I would agree that would be quite possible, if you had 1,000 men."
"Then why could not 100,000 men build 100 walls of one mile each?"
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 10:02 AM
Heck! I have two of those aliens living next door and they are by no means ancient! Not too darn sure which part of the universe they may be from but there planet certainly must spin a different direction then ours. All kidding aside, this series is thought provoking but I have seen no evidence of extraterrestrial visitors nor has this show proved in any way they have been here.
I see no reason why thousands of human slaves could not build pryamids. Heck, if termites can build a mound hundreds of times taller than themselves I think that in those days we could build those statues and pyramid with enough time and labor.
-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 10:34 AM
"The questions are how did they obtain the technology, what was the technology and what happened to the technology?"
While it is hard to say specifically to some of those sites, what frequently happens is that wars and disease take their toll on the peoples. Climatic changes, overuse of the land, or other factors may also alter the ability of the land to support the population, resulting in a scattering of the peoples.
The technology, no longer needed for subsistence living, will simply fade into disuse over the generations that follow. If the people are no longer building large stone monuments for kings or gods they no longer regard as worthy of their labour, they will lose much of the technology that went into their construction.
Even today, some bemoan the fact that America may well lack the know-how to put a man on the Moon, even though we did so little more than a generation ago. If we're not putting people on the Moon, how and why would we continue to develop and maintain the technology to do so?
Many of these structures are found in climates where the maintenance of paper writing is difficult to impossible. Thus, whatever written records they may have had have been lost to the four W's - War, Wear, Weather, and the Will of God. Such is know to be the case on Easter Island, where the written language was recorded on tree bark, which was later burned for firewood on that now-treeless landscape. Conquering armies, likewise, have been known to destroy the records of those they conquer, and to kill or carry off the learned among them.
Nebuchadnezzar was noted for bringing captured technology to his home, along with those responsible for designing and maintaining it. When the Kingdom of Angkor was overrun, those of their leaned men who survived the assault were carried to India, leaving the temples and cities they built to be consumed by the jungles. Such has it been all around the World.
Cortez apparently had not interest in the technology of the New World he invaded. He sought only the riches, not the technology that had produced it. That which he did not plunder was ravaged by the jungles and by the diseases his men brought with them. This much is well documented. There is little reason to think preceeding civilizations had fared differently.
This is not to deny that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe. I agree that it is vanity to claim that we, alone in the vast stretches of space, have risen from the dust. Whether by fate or by the hand of one God or of diverse gods, it is probable that intelligent life has evolved or been created again and again.
One might even suppose that God, seeing how man failed him on this planet, might have tried the experiment elsewhere, perhaps with more success. Ray Bradbury did a short story on this at one time, I seem to recall.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 2:00 PM
"Then why could not 100,000 men build 100 walls of one mile each?"
Clearly they could, because those wall building activities can be conducted concurrently. It is less plausible to put 100,000 men to work building a pyramid. They will continually get into each other's way.
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"...the human body alone could not have built many of the stone pyramids and other lasting structures across Earth. Not to mention the incredible precision."
As mentioned above, it was never the human body alone, it was many bodies, ramps, rollers, ropes, pullys, levers, etc. As for precision, there is no record of the numerous (probably 100's and 100's) stones that were shaped, did not fit, and had to be discarded.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 2:46 PM
Very arrogant of us humans to even entertain that we know-it-all or that we are/were the only intelligent life in the vast galaxies.
I wasn't sold on many of the theories, but some definately stirred possibilities.
-- Posted by Me'Lange on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 12:16 PM
When you take into account the vastness of our own Milky Way galaxy and realize that there are more galaxies in the universe than there are stars in the Milky Way I think it becomes inevitable that there is likely, not only life but intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe.
That being said, the distance just between solar systems is so great that any civilization that is technologically savvy enough to bridge that gulf would likely look upon us as we might look upon a caveman. Of course the difference between us and cavemen is that we are in danger of overpopulating our planet and are tearing through our global natural resources. An advanced civilization would likely learn little from us, but we would quickly wear out our welcome with requests for the secret to free and unlimited energy, the cure for cancer, space travel, quantum computing, etc. etc. etc.
I just think that if an advanced civilization were to find us here on the equivalent of a Podunk back road in the outskirts of our galaxy, they would probably pass us by in favor of a more advanced civilization with whom they could converse without having to explain simple things like quantum mechanics.
-- Posted by DADES on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 4:17 PM
"Common, Simply put, I think you are wrong."
Looks like I thoughtlessly and unwisely gave the rational engineering answer to the question stating how pyramids were built. I was not aware that someone was really looking for the name of the galaxy that the "builders" came from.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 6:30 PM
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 2:46 PM
Dang it I think you are right.
I'm not saying there was no help but they have proven how they could have done it. You take 20K to 30K workers, working 7 days a week as slaves, for 80 years ***** and elbows, and they can move a lot of material. They have shown how they used water for leveling (which is 100% actuate). They have shown how the stones were moved up the ramps and how levers were used lift outrageous amounts of weight. It is possible.
You take 30,000 individuals carrying 1 cubic yard baskets of dirt it equals 112 dump truck loads per trip. Now that is a lot of material.
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 7:12 PM
A lot of people can build a lot of fence fast as long as they have a lot of fence posts.
I was expecting someone to say that extrordinary knowledge of precision could have been lost over generations when it was no longer needed after those that brought it left.
How do we explain images that could only be seen from great altitude?
-- Posted by Old John on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 10:00 PM
OJ
Math
-- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 10:03 PM
Regret, Who was to see them?
-- Posted by Old John on Wed, Feb 22, 2012, at 10:24 PM
"...have watched shows where engineers attempt to figure out 'how' man-kind could have built the pyramids..."
It is still a matter of physics, mechanics, math and engineering. Keep in mind that to explain the procedures that were used takes just one program. By speculating on why it could not have been done without magic or "lost" technology, they can create a whole series, and even a second season.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 7:16 AM
I can't find the video for the NOVA program I watched awhile back on PBS but here is a link to the story. It gives some insight to how it could very well have been done by the egyptians.
-- Posted by Joe Dirte on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 8:19 AM
Me'Lange: I don't usually comment on any of the threads but in this case I will. Me'Lange this might surprise you but I'm in complete agreement with you on this matter. I to watch Ancient Aliens and other related programs (ie Decoding the Past). Read all of the poster's comments and you and "Rick" are right on with your comments. Suggest you watch the movie - Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull for more info on the crystal skulls. The ancient people would have used Orion's belt since it stands out in the night sky. Also, like "exmissiourian" pointed out on 2/20/12 7:19pm post, the books are a must read. Eric has been on numerous Ancient Aliens show explaining his thoughts on the matter. We all need to keep an open mind considering the Ancients.
-- Posted by Truth Slinger on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 9:50 AM
Yep those onward Christian soldiers had an extreme way of promoting Christianity. I have to ask, who here has seen what they considered to be a UFO???
-- Posted by GREYWOLF on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 3:50 PM
"...Orion Belt lines up to the Milky Way in the nite sky . All pyramids sides are perfect North , South , East , and West."
Putting 3 pyramids in a row does not have to be mysteriously connected to Orion's belt. The orientation of the pyramids can be set by using Polaris for north. The rest of the directions are automatic when you are building a square.
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"The pyramids are all over the World , how was this possible when Columbus didn't "discover" the "New World" until 1492?"
When piling rocks, a pyramid shape is the most obvious form to use. There is no reason not to believe that civilizations came to that conclusion independently.
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"...they mean nothing walking on the ground."
That is only if you look at them today. No one really knows what they looked like from the ground when they were built.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 4:17 PM
"How were these things possible by standing on the flat deserts of Egypt?"
One first builds an 'artificial horizon', a earthen berm piled to a uniform elevation on top. Having done this, you track the rising and setting of the Sun and the Stars for a year and determine the centerline of their travel.
The Egyptians would have had little difficulty building such a berm, as there is ample soil of good enough quality for the building. They also had a penchant for stargazing and for mathematics, so such an undertaking would not have seemed out of the realm of their expertise.
They apparently had an abudnance of slaves to do the grunt work, they merely had to have capable organizers to keep their work productive and focused.
The Greeks, the Romans, and the Persians were able to build massive structures using similar techniques. The difference there is that they wrote about the techniques and kept records which survived to this day. The Egyptians, while apparently prolific in their writing, did not appear to find such mundane things and construction manuals worthy of long-term record. Of course, there was the destruction of the library at Alexandria, and similar losses.
The pyramid is, in fact, a pile of rocks. Big rocks, well placed, but a pile of rocks just the same. The newest of them were covered with smooth limestone at one time, thought that is long gone.
I recall reading that architects and builders were given short shrift by the Egyptians, who reserved monumental mention for the Kings and Queens who paid for the construction, not the people who did the work. There is one structure, however, although I forget which, in which the architect outwitted the Pharaoh and preserved his name for eternity. When it came time to place the inscription, he had his name carved in stone as architect and builder. He then covered that with plaster and had the Pharaoh's name carved in the plaster. Many years later, after both the Pharaoh and the architect were long gone, the plaster crumbled and fell, leaving the architect's name inscribed for history to remember him. He is, I believe, the only Ancient Egyptian architect to have his name so remembered.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 4:42 PM
I certainly did "not call the pyramids a pile of rocks!!!"
In response to a question of pyramid building taking place in the western hemisphere prior to Columbus, I stated that "piling rocks" in the form of a pyramid was the most logical shape to use. If you prefer, I will use the phrase carefully stacking large, pre-cut stone boulders...
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 6:29 PM
Greywolf, You said, " I have to ask, who here has seen what they considered to be a UFO???"
Yep, many times. I have seen a lot of objects that were flying and unidentified. Luckily I ducked most of them and learned not to argue with her. :)
I have seen some things in the night sky moving in ways I can't explain. I am reminded of the way I can be fooled when driving down the road watching a train running parallel to the highway. Is the train moving or is the helicopter in the sky behind the train moving?
In the '70s I watched the glimmer of a high commercial jet without a com trail. Suddenly it started going the opposite direction as if it hadn't stopped, just reversed it's self. I have since concluded that the one I was watching kept going and my eyes picked up on another going the other way. Who knows, that could have been a UFO.
-- Posted by Old John on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 8:26 PM
I'm not saying the idea of being visited by ancient astronauts is not possible. However, I would think such visitors having mastered the technology to travel the cosmos, might have tried to accomplish something more meaningful than moving a few rocks around.
Then again, we went all the way to the Moon and did pretty much the same thing, on a smaller scale. But we did leave the landing module bases, a couple of flags, and an expensive car...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 9:13 PM
"...think the last 200 years is more important..."
No, not the last 200 years, the last 5000 years...
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Thu, Feb 23, 2012, at 9:27 PM
Me'Lange,
Then, you are discussing the idea of God or the gods as alien beings from distant worlds? This has been bandied about by science fiction writers, philosophers, and others. It has some merit, since we nearly always consider God or the gods to come 'from the heavens'. But, then we're blending science and religion, and we're always told not to do that, so I'll leave it be.
~ Rick ~
Yes, in essence, any stone building is a 'pile of rocks'. Neatly stacked in some cases, less neatly in others, but they remain a 'pile of rocks'. It may be more accurate to call most buildings a 'stack of rocks', since they are more 'stacked' than 'piled'. However, the pyramids more aptly fit the defintion of 'pile', since their shape is not unlike that which we call a 'stockpile' formed by the piling of material from a single fill point. Stockpiles are usually conical, but they can be shaped and still fit the defintion.
The dictionary definition of 'pile' permits either stacking or throwing of the material to form the pile. Thus, the fact that the blocks are stacked does not alter the fact that the result is a pile.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 8:13 AM
~~Rick,
The Egyptian Pyramids are not the only pyramids. Those of the Mayans were built as ceremonial sites. Those are the ones I've visited. I've only seen the Egyptian ones in photographs.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 8:34 AM
Me'Lange, I thought some of satan's angels came down and seeded some of mankind creating a race of giants.
I saw a documentary suggesting far east sailors reached the western shores of the Americas a many many years before Columbus thus the similarities in pyramids and some other cultural endeavors.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 9:33 AM
Me'Lange,
I disagree. I think most religious dogma entertains the 'seeding' theory, they just disagree on the nature of the One who sowed the seed, and perhaps on what he planned to reap.
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 9:35 AM
Rick, with the risk of being scolded for bringing up the subject forbidden to this thread, in the early part of the twentieth century some curious college educated folks succeded in digging up a very dangerous disease that has yet to be contained or even associated with the perils of injustice it inflicts on society.
That would be liberalism! :)
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 2:42 PM
BTW , King Ahkenaken of Egypt , 4000BC , also had a longated skull .
-- Posted by ~~Rick on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 11:43 AM
The kid who rang me up at the gas station had elongated ear lobes. Do you think he was an alien?
-- Posted by DADES on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 4:22 PM
"...some continents were still touching and had not seperated as they are currently..."
The "super-continent" Pangaea, existed about 300 million years ago. The continents were in their approximate current positions about 200 million years ago. The earliest humans developed in Africa about 3 million years ago. A bit late to catch a ride on a continent.
Try lowered sea levels during ice ages.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 4:40 PM
Given the size of the oceans I don't think there is enough room on dry earth to support the global warming mentality that the all the water can be suspended as ice allowing the sea level to drop enough for easy passage between continents.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 4:55 PM
"...sea level to drop enough for easy passage between continents..."
Very early Europeans could have come to North America along the edges of the Atlantic, not across the middle.
-- Posted by commonsensematters on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 7:29 PM
The Bering Sea has been known to freeze sufficiently that one can walk from continent to continent on the ice, so the sea levels would not need to drop so drastically.
Of course, it has also been crossed on varieties of simple flotation devices, including a windsurfer...
-- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 8:35 PM
So as I was getting to, peoples crossing much earlier than the standard consensus could be reason over coincidence or alien visits for similiar stacks of rock.
-- Posted by Old John on Fri, Feb 24, 2012, at 9:06 PM
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Rapture or rupture?
Replies (37)