Speak Out: The Atomic Bombing of Japan in 1945

Replies (36)

• My 2 uncles that were going to be invading the Japanese mainland was glad they dropped it. There would have been loss of life that would make the D-day invasion look small.

  -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Wed, Oct 17, 2012, at 8:47 PM

• Regret, Did you read it or do what I do a lot of times, scan through the first part.

  The Japanese people were poised to fight to the death, every man women and child to protect their emporer. [Their diety]

  The article suggests and offers pretty good evidence that surrender was at hand if the occupation didn't threaten the supreme status of their emporer.

  Proper diplomacy may have staved off the need for the bombs that started the cold war arms race.

  -- Posted by Old John on Wed, Oct 17, 2012, at 10:13 PM

• Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with OLD JOHN on this one, at least up to a certain-point. My Dad sure was glad it happened, as he'd had enough of diplomacy, as far as Betio, in the Tarawa-Atoll Battle of November '43.

  Good-chance I wouldn't have been born several-years later in Nov. of '51, literally eight-years after that.

  Kinda humbles a fella---or, a gal, as well---whatever the case...

  -- Posted by donknome-2 on Thu, Oct 18, 2012, at 11:52 AM

• OJ

  Remember it took two bombs before they surrendered. We gave them plenty of time while our guys were being shipped home in boxes daily as they made up their mind. We were tired.

  -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Thu, Oct 18, 2012, at 11:58 AM

• Old John:

  Proper Diplomacy? Seriously? We tried that. They wouldn't even surrender after the first one.

  Ask Nanking about how diplomatic the regime was.

  -- Posted by Rational.Thought on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 10:37 AM

• Loss of life? REALLY??? so... I couple hundred thousand innocent lives,, lives of women and children was worth ending the war a few weeks earlier? No, it wasnt and isnt. And given the opportunity I fully believe Harry S. would have made a different decision. He had to live with the fact that, in effect, he murdered those innocents.... I am sure it weighed heavy on his heart all his days after.

  -- Posted by Real-ist on Thu, Oct 18, 2012, at 11:32 PM

  See Okinawa

  -- Posted by Rational.Thought on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 10:39 AM

• Had Japan not bombed Pearl Harbor there would have been no bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. War is an ugly thing and was brought to Japan by their actions. Look what the Japanese did in China and elsewhere; sorry, but I am having a little trouble getting too worked up over this. The United States did not start WWII.

  -- Posted by 356 on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 2:09 PM

• The Japanese had prepared their defenses and were planning on fighting to the last man. Their intent was that, after they had inflicted 1,000,000 casualties on our invading forces, we would have been willing to give them more favourable terms for surrender.

  The Russians, meanwhile, had invaded Manchuria and were moving across Korea and into China. Sensing the end of the war, they broke their treaty with Japan and wanted to have their military in position to claim territories as part of the final treaty. The war had to end quickly or Russia would have spread its territory into the Korean Penninsula, China, Mongolia, and parts of the Japanese Islands. They had already dismantled and shipped to Russia all of the technological capabilities of Manchuria.

  The atomic bombs were a necessary evil. This was weighed and decided long ago, by men without the benefit of hindsight. Even today, when one looks at all the consequences of the bombing and weighs that against the anticipated outcome of prolonging the war, it appears to be the correct choice.

  -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 3:22 PM

• Anyone have any doubts as to what Japan or Germany would have done if they had the atomic bomb first?

  -- Posted by 356 on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 5:23 PM

• Would you please post the link to the article again?

  Thanks.

  -- Posted by Givemeliberty on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 6:17 PM

• The fire bombing of Dresden killed more people.

  The US could have targeted larger cities if it was simply revenge.

  -- Posted by Rational.Thought on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 6:26 PM

• Wow. I really don't have comment. Just reading right now. They didn't teach this in High school I can tell you guys that much.

  BC, can you recommend a good book on the matter? I'm sure their are more than one.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 6:54 PM

• The article suggests that by December 1945 or November 1946 at the latest, Japan would have surrendered. As already noted, by that time Russia would be in control of Mancuria, the Korean Penninsula, and large parts of China.

  Brig. Gen. Jerome T. Hagan, USMC (Ret.) does an excellent job of explaining this in volume 5 of his work "War In The Pacific".

  -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 9:13 PM

• The original Potsdam proposal that Truman was advised to go with called for allowing the emperor to remain on his throne unmolested but stripped of his powers. Truman changed that back to unconditional surrender on his way. Although they did not participate in the original declaration, the Soviets knew the content and objected to it. The jushin was for surrender as they recognized not much of Japan would be left after a few more months of bombing but the Supreme council expected to inflict enough casualties on the allies at a cost of millions of civilians for a chance of better surrender terms allowing the emperor to remain with his powers.

  Stalin played Roosevelt and Truman like chumps. When Truman mentioned he had a new powerful weapon, Stalin said he hoped it was put to good use. [Klaus Fuchs had kept Stalin up to speed on the bomb]

  So where am I going with this?

  The demand for unconditional German surrender allowed the Soviets time to enter Germany and claim their undeserved spoils just as the demand for unconditional Japanese surrender allowed the Soviets more undeserved spoils in Asia.

  Harry A Gailey also does a good job with a book of the same title, "War in the Pacific".

  -- Posted by Old John on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 12:15 AM

• -- Posted by BCStoned on Fri, Oct 19, 2012, at 5:56 PM

  Others have provided reasons, you just don't like them.

  -- Posted by 356 on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 5:09 AM

• I read the book "The Day Man Lost " (I forget the author's name), which also argued that the bombing was unnecessary. The book focused mostly on the aftermath, and took a rather one-sided approach to the arguments in favour. I didn't agree with the book's point of view.

  Again, most of the arguments made to day are written with the benefit of hindsight, something Truman et. al. did not have available to them.

  -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 7:30 AM

• RICK: We still use a variant of the "old" V-2 rocket for launching satellites still today, don't we?(Can't think of the modern-day designation off-hand?) The 'outdated' "Honest John" warhead delivery-system probably used the same-version as well.

  The V-2 was, indeed, an-effective rocket, conceived WAY-before it's time. And Nazi-Germany was perilously-close to the point of successful delivery, had the scientists involved not been, um,---'relocated', when they were...

  -- Posted by donknome-2 on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 11:02 AM

• Thanks BC and Hunter for the book references.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 12:28 PM

• My dear departed FIL, a public school history teacher, and a SeaBee in the Pacific when barely 18 in 1944, always preached that the "Japanese people would fight to the last man with pointed sticks...an invasion would have been a blood bath."

  Joseph Sobran said, "War has all the characteristics of socialism most conservatives hate: centralized power, state planning, fake rationalism, restricted liberties, foolish optimism about intended results, and blindness to unintended results."

  Now my eyes are really open. Thanks BC.

  -- Posted by Givemeliberty on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:03 PM

• Rick, I was suprised to learn Enrico Fermi's team creatrd the first controlled nuclear chain reaction in a lab under University of Chigago's football field in Dec '42.

  At that time the Russians with the aid of a sophisticated spy network imbedded in Germany and the U.S. were ahead of the U.S in theory and understanding the science.

  -- Posted by Old John on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:06 PM

• "The A-Bomb was tested right here in the good ol' USA , Nevada I believe it was ."

  I believe the A-bomb was tested in July or August 1945 in New Mexico, near Alamogordo in the desert.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:23 PM

• BC,

  In my research of Dennis D. Wainstock, the author you mentioned, I was unable to find even one photo of the man. He is said to be a associate history professor at Salem-Teikyo University in Salem, West Virginia, Fairmont State University and Pierpont Community & Technical College. I found notices of past book signing events still up on the web. At FSU he is classified as an adjunct faculty member, which just means "part-time". The other colleges title him as "Associate Professor". I also cannot find a bio for him, which seems a bit odd.

  I don't know why it's so difficult to vet him out.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:41 PM

• BC,

  I mean a simple search on Google such as: "Dennis D. Wainstock was born" shows zilch. So it gets more peculiar. Just try that search on yourself and see what happens.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:47 PM

• This came up with nothing as well:

  "Dennis D. Wainstock curriculum vitae"

  That should produce plenty if he's a real person.

  What do you think? Is he a propaganda writer for the US?

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 1:57 PM

• BC,I think you misunderstand. I can find the book. I can't find the author, as I said in my numerous posts above.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 5:17 PM

• https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hamby.htm

  -- Posted by 356 on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 7:42 PM

• "...the 'Project Paper Clip" began , which excused German engineers from any war crimes and let them come to America..."

  Germans that were guilty of war crimes were not eligible for Project Paperclip.

  -- Posted by commonsensematters on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 7:53 PM

• BC, Sometimes I think the turns of history can not be explained by sorting out the reasons and logic that is assumed to have driven it.

  The link 356 put up does show that there was a lot of support to the idea that unconditional surrender was considered the best plan by a lot of high level military while the public wanted the Japanese dealt with harshly.

  -- Posted by Old John on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 11:22 PM

• I still think it's impossible to be able to gain knowledge based on information that was written long after the fact, especially when it comes from untraceable authors.

  I lead one down the 'it must be true because I read it in a book' path.

  At best, all I can do is theorize.

  At Potsdam, when the Victors got together to divide up the spoils, I think it's interesting how much land was given to Stalin/Russia.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 10:22 AM

• "The nearly complete destruction of Japan by conventional weapons offered them that assurance."

  That's not supported by the evidence, nor by historical record. The resistence put up on Iwo Jima, Tarawa, and Guadalcanal all show that heavy shelling and bombing of the entrenched Japanese did not deter their ability to inflict heavy casualties on Americans. Even as invasion loomed, they sent one of their most powerful submarines, the I-400 fleet, to intercept and inflict casualties on the U.S. Pacific Fleet. They had embarked on their mission, fully loaded and ready for action, when they received word of the unconditional surrender accepted by the Emporer.

  The submarines subsequently surrendered and were destroyed in 1946. They were massive submarines, with considereable firepower. Originally designed to spread biological warfare agenst by infected rats on the Western U.S. Coastline, they were later prepared for deployment to destroy the Gatun Locks of the Panama Canal, and were capable of making the round-trip from Japan to Panama without refueling.

  As invasion of Japan loomed, their mission was again changed to attacking the U.S. Pacific Fleet. Had the surrender not taken place before they encountered the fleet, the casualties to our ships, seamen, and transported troops would likely have been massive.

  -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 10:39 AM

• -- Posted by BCStoned on Sat, Oct 20, 2012, at 9:44 PM

  Just found it to be interesting, not trying to prove anything.

  I find it hard in hindsight to justify a lot if not much was done by all combatants; never could understand wholesale bombing, especially fire bombing of civilian populations. It is kind of hard to say fire bombing civilian targets was "good" while the use of the atomic bomb was "bad"; not directed at you as you are more consistent than most of us, just musing out loud I suppose.

  -- Posted by 356 on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 10:39 AM

• It seems to me that officer's journals or memoirs, American and Japanese, would be a more acceptable source for accurate information rather than what was written in the history text books. Accounts from both perspectives and we could figure the truth to be somewhere in the middle.

  -- Posted by dchannes on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 11:14 AM

• What the officers wrote at the time was limited by the knowledge available at the time.

  The Officers, for example, did not know about the I-400 fleet. The existence of it was not known to the United States until after the war. Thus, relying on contemporary journals denies access to information found out only after the surrender.

  The impact of the Kamikazes on the morale of U.S sailors and Marines was underplayed at the time, because it was not desirable for the Japanese to know just how effective that weapon had been. Unfortunately, many historians and contemporary writers have been guilty of believing our own propaganda.

  Itelligence estimates of Japanese strengths on various locations such as Iwo Jima, Quadalcanal, and the Aleutians had been so incorrect as to undermine much confidence in them. The U.S. had reported that Japan was running out of airplanes to mount a Kamikaze defense of the mainland. After the war, it was discovered that they had several hundred in reserve for the attack, as well as hundreds of suicide boats in reserve for mainland defense.

  When you realize how ineffective bombardment had been against an island the size of Iwo Jima, and compare that to mainland Japan, you realize how little confidence there must have been in the idea that Japanese defenses had been significantly weakened by conventional bombing.

  -- Posted by Shapley Hunter on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 11:28 AM

• Seems we come back full circle to the idea that unconditional surrender, if offered ealier would have negated the need to drop atomic bombs or invade, but again we get back to the threat of the Russians.

  -- Posted by Old John on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 1:06 PM

• -- Posted by BCStoned on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 11:02 AM

  I honestly don't know, as mentioned, those making the decisions at the time did not have all the information now available and were left with a lot of "what ifs", countries jockeying for position, racing to take over the spoils of war etc., politicians looking to the future as well as military leaders concerned about their legacy or how they would fair in trials for war crimes.

  -- Posted by 356 on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 2:36 PM

• -- Posted by Real-ist on Thu, Oct 18, 2012, at 11:32 PM

  It's a shame your Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father, whatever the case may be didn't get to be laid to rest over there if the bomb wasn't dropped.

  I see it as they started it, wouldn't surrender, so they got what they deserved.

  We had taken out the Nazis and they wanted the Japanese war over. What was that little thing? Potsdam? We begged them that we had the bomb and will use it.

  -- Posted by We Regret To Inform U on Sun, Oct 21, 2012, at 7:57 PM